Behind Our Eyes Book Launch Presents
Author Leonard Tuchyner Interviewed by Brad Corallo
October 27, 2023 Transcript

Readers Note: If you have found this transcript to be helpful, please take a moment to let us know by sending a brief message to Marlene Mesot at: Marl.Mesot@gmail.com. You may also contact someone you know in our writers’ group. Thank you very much.

Marlene Mesot: Behind our eyes presents BOE Book Launch for Friday, October twenty-seven, twenty-twenty-three. Welcome everyone. This is Marlene Mesot. Tonight's featured author is Leonard Tuchyner, and his new release. Moon Rising: Stories and Poems which came out in April of this year. And Leonard will be interviewed by behind our Eyes, Vice President and fellow author Brad Corallo. Take it away, Brad.
Brad Corallo: OK. Hey, Leonard.
Leonard Tuchyner: Yeah, I'm here.
Brad: OK, so, this new book is Moon Rising: Stories and Poems. And this is your third book. So as of now you've written a collection of poetry, a full-length novel, and a collection of short pieces. So obviously you're a versatile writer. Do you have a preferred writing genre from those three, or even outside of those three?
Leonard: No, it depends what I, I'm writing about. What I want to accomplish through the writing for poetry, I can say with the smallest amount of words and I have to really work for each individual word and for a novel, I can spend all the time I want and go wherever I want to go with it for as long as it takes.
Brad: Um hm. 
Leonard: Uh, what was the other thing?
Brad: Well, the novel approach and now this collection of shorter pieces.
Leonard: Yeah, well, the same thing applies, yeah.
Brad: OK. All right. Very good. So. This piece is coming out within the book launch here, and it's just before Halloween and this book it's a collection of pieces that have a fancy and supernatural sensibilities. And there are some straight Halloween pieces. Can you talk about why Halloween is something that you find interesting and enjoyable?
Leonard: Well, it's one of my earliest memories for a holiday that I really enjoyed. And when I write about it, it brings back a lot of those feelings of youth where anything is possible. You know where magic is possible. And you know, I have all those images and feelings that went with when I went trick and treating. You know. This was someone else and went from door-to-door and. I live in New Jersey, so we had apartments there. We had four apartments, one place, so, I could really gather quite a lot of loot to go.
Brad: Um hm. So would it be fair to say that, since it's your earliest memory, it's a positive memory, one of the purposes behind this book is to kind of reawaken wonder in people, uh, as you know when you're a kid the world is a wondrous place. And as you get old, it becomes less wondrous. Is that one of the ideas behind the book?
Leonard: Yes, it so happens it is. I can't say I started out for it to be that way, but it seems that my writing just kind of reflects that. Uh, I become more aware of the aging process the older I get. And, uh, I don't know whether the world becomes less magical, or more magical, or just changes around what the definition is. Because you know when you're close to death, everything is magic. Or it's not, and then that's, that’s a problem.
Brad: OK. So now this collection, how far back do these stories go? In other words, you didn't just sit down one day and say, like, I'm going to write thirty-seven stories and put them together in a book. You know these obviously were written over a period of time. How far back does this go?
Leonard: Quite a ways back. I didn't start writing in earnest until about nineteen eighty something. And these are just accumulations of stories that I've told for, uh, that amount of time. With most of them being more towards the latter part of my writing efforts.
Brad: OK. So there are some interesting connections between some of the stories in the collection. There are four pieces about gnomes. There are four pieces about rather extraordinary mothers, and maybe we'll start with that. So, there are three pieces in here: The Gremlin Mother, Marooned and The Super Cook. That actually involves you and your mother. Can you talk a little bit about the idea, ‘cause, I mean, they're rather unusual pieces, you know. So, can you give us some idea of where these things came from?
Leonard: Well, if you think that being on a deserted island and then your mother comes along and then she gradually turns into a child, do you think that's unusual?
Brad: I think it's a little bit unusual. It hasn't happened to me yet, but you know, I'm open.
Leonard: Well, I think that piece is about, well, I had a mixed relationship with my mother. It was positive and it was negative. And so, in my latter years, I go back and I want to reconsider what my feelings are, what part I had to play in the relationship and so forth. And this was a perfect canvas in which to explore that, because there I am on an island and all of a sudden who should come up but my mother and says. “He got some white fish.” and she's got all of the foibles, all of the characteristics of the traditional Jewish mother. And all of the irritating things that she had and a lot of the good things. And gradually she's decreasing in age. And my relationship with her changes, which answers the question if my mother were somebody else, if she were my daughter, how would I react to her? And I explored that and then kind of was surprised and until she became a baby and our relationship changed to where I was, more like the, uh, father, and she was more like the daughter. So you can either have to use your imagination of what that might be like. But for me it was very therapeutic and very healing.
Brad: And again, that's been your career, having been a counselor and a therapist. You're kind of doing your own therapy through this writing.
Leonard: Yeah, most of my writing is very much therapeutic, right. I run a group. I've been running it for about sixteen years now, seventeen years. At the Senior Center in Charlottesville, and it's called Writing for Healing and Growth. So, an idea, yeah.
Brad: Yeah. OK very good. The other mother piece is again one was after your mother had died and once she turned into a gremlin and you found out you were half gremlin. And then another one you were in trouble, like organized crime or something, and she turned into this superhero and she vanquished these evil fellows there. So, where do those fit into the therapeutic part of writing about your mother?
Leonard: Well, in part, let's take the Gremlin one. It gives her a free slate, with which she can practice the Jewish humor. And how would you feel if you were in a car leaving her funeral and then see her sitting next to you? Laughs.
Brad: Yah.
Leonard: Laughs. Yeah. So and then to find out that she's really a gremlin and then therefore you’re half gremlin. So that was fun. And then the other one, the Super hero mother. Well, she was a pretty good cook. I mean, I guess everybodys mothers are the best cooks. 
Diane Tuchyner: My mother was a super cook.
Leonard: But yeah, my mother, the super cook. So in this, she's an old lady but, and I'm asking her for help. And after she finishes making me feel guilty for the problems I'm in and so forth and so on, she finally says, well, I'll try it. I'll put on the old costume. When she comes out, she's a beautiful woman. First she wipes the floor up with the villains. And then she makes us a terrific dinner and that was fun.  
Brad: So, obviously, there’s a lot of influence there. The last mother story, it doesn't involve you, but it involves Mother Earth. who is it's a it's a very it's it's a very funny and and you know yet very serious story and it's one of the two stories where God is one of your characters. So could you talk a little bit about that story? I mean that's maybe my favorite from the entire book.
Leonard: Yeah, well, that story is about the global warming and the ecology actually and the earth is getting messed up by her children, Mother Earth.
Brad: Right.
Leonard: And she's sitting on a cloud somewhere, talking to her therapist who's God. And says what am I gonna do about this? And she said, and she gets the chance to complain about her husband, Saul and her sister, Venus, the vixen, about Jupiter is so far out there, and now we can reach him and so forth and so on. And she's being the martyr and so forth. And she asked the questions. God answers them like a Jewish person, and He answers them almost all with a question of His own until the very end and He gives her some real good ideas or really good information or something, that it basically boils down to tough love. He said you've got a whole lot of stuff in your bag, you've got hurricanes, you've got droughts. You've got everything, and you just have to make them suffer and she should understand that. Yeah, and make them until they're either cured or they're dead. So. 
Brad; Um hm.
Leonard: And that's what He leaves her with. And then she's happy about that.
Brad: Again, there are some extremely funny lines in that story, And I just want to go off on a little tangent about. It's been said that you can't teach people to write humor. Did you? You know, how do you? You do write some very humorous pieces. How does that happen?
Leonard: I think my cultural background helps a lot. You know Fiddler on the Rooftop talks about the guy who plays the fiddle on the rooftop. He's either going to fall over or keep his balance, or you don’t know what's going to happen with him. But, you know, he's precarious. And being on the precarious edge is no nothing new for Jews, so. That's one of our major points of humor. Sometimes it's a dark humor. Sometimes it's an overstated or an understated humor. It's very difficult to describe, but when you live it, you kind of know what it is. And I'd like to use that a lot. And I guess that's the basis of it.
Brad: I mean, yeah, writing it's very engaging because people want to laugh. Part of what we do as writers is we're entertaining people. So. It makes a lot of sense. Moving on to another one of the, sort of, loose themes in the collection. There are four pieces about gnomes. One is a sock gnome who steals people's socks. One is a septic gnome who lives in the septic system. One is a swamp gnome who lives in Washington, D. C., and kind of goes back a long way in history, and the other is a dumpster gnome who exchanges places with people. Could you talk a little bit about these stories and, you know, where they came from and the fascination with gnomes, I mean, I know that you're a gardener and a lot of people have these little statues of garden gnomes, and I don't know if that ties into it. But, you know, if you could just talk about that a little bit.
Leonard: Well, gnomes are…They're a force of nature. They present the opportunity to talk about some issues or just funny issues. And you can explore the universe with a character like a gnome because he doesn't have to follow the normal rules and he can have powers and he has certain characteristics and so forth. They're kind of my foil to play off of. And basically that's what they're doing in these stories. And of course, they are supposed to be humorous, and they are humorous. And I just have more freedom in which to do that with a gnome or some could be a fairy or, could be…well fairies are different. Gnomes have, some of them have nasty dispositions. Some have surprising dispositions. And they also give you an opportunity to explore weird things that happen, you know like the swamp. No, that's really talking about Washington, D. C. that some people call the swamp, and of course it was a swamp. It was built on a swamp.
Brad: And they talk about draining the swamp.
Leonard: Yeah, right. 
Brad: Yeah. 
Leonard: Yeah, and the sock gnome is an answer to a world question. What happens to my socks? Why do they get mixed up? Well, the sock gnome steals them and he lives in them until they're so bad and smelling that he has to throw them away. And so you can't get your sock back. Of course. 
Brad: Very interesting concept. I mean, I've heard all sorts of things about lost socks, another dimension, another universe. So this gives us a unique answer on where these socks go.
Leonard: One of the gnomes was the Dreamcatcher.
Brad: He was a homunculus. Right. He was a homunculus. Is a homunculus the same thing as a gnome?
Leonard: Mainly yes.
Brad: OK, I'm not…with homunculuses. I mean, I know what they were originally thought to be, but I've never. You know, this is my first reading about one, so.
Leonard: Well, they are particularly in my stories because they’re a part of me. I like to say I was born a grouch and I'm sticking to it. But. Uh. Oh yeah, the Dreamcatcher was a gnome that interprets dreams. In my profession I had a long stint of working with dreams. We don't really interpret them, but we worked with them. And he was doing that for the individual until the individual decided to take over and to take the responsibility for his dreams.
Brad: OK. Yeah. I get what you're saying about the gnomes and the homunculuses enable you to have intelligent verbal yet weird characters who do strange things, and that's an excellent device to write with. So I now understand that for the first time. So thank you. Let's see. Well, let's go back to again that you run critique groups for BOE and I seem to remember one of the pieces that you presented was the one about the piano mouse. And am I correct that you guys actually had a real mouse in your piano?
Leonard: More than one. More than once.
Brad: Oh, OK. Can you tell us about that and tell us about the conversations you had with them?
Leonard: “Well, if you don't get out of here, I'm going to stomp on you. Get out of the piano.” That's about the most I ever said to it, but, Diane has an upright grand piano, so there's lots of space inside. And the mice love it there. It butts up against the wall that's the porch, and that's where all the bird food and all that is. And they just love to make a home in there. And we've had to call the piano tuner several times to clean it up, get rid of the seeds. And put in the mouse traps and it's a funny, but it was really kind of messy.
Brad: Um hm, I'm sure you know it's a great concept really. I mean it's the kind of thing that if you do experience that, you almost have to write about it.
Leonard: Yeah. 
Brad: You know, ‘cause it's, it’s very unique. It's very, very…
Leonard: Self-defense.
Brad: Yep, there you go. So again, one of the recurring theme is that you talk to a lot of, and they talk to you, a lot of very different life forms. So we have two stories with talking vegetables and in one of them it's a very young beet. The beet wonders if you're God. Can you talk a little bit about that one because it's it's kind of an odd combination of like a children's story and a deep philosophical contemplation. It's a very unusual story.
Leonard: As a gardener. I imagined that a beet started to talk to me. It was a little tiny thing at the time. It turned out to be a very intelligent being and we had long discussions after I got used to the fact that the beet was actually talking to me. And he had a lot of questions. Somehow God got involved in there and he said are you God because you know, you seem to take care of everything in the garden and everything. But why can't you keep the rows straight? And don't hoe so close to my roots. You know, you're scaring me. So he's got a very healthy attitude about that. I assure him that I'm not God. On the other hand, I do think, well, that gets into something else. I think we're all gods and. he has this one season in which to learn everything that there is about the world, and to come to terms with it. So he explores as much as he can, as quickly as he can. In one place he decides that what his lot in life is to grow up to be as perfect a beet as he could be, and that means to reach full fruition to get be as big a beet as he can be and then to lay down and die and accept that and he decides to do that. And he, well, he wants his body to be picked out of the earth while he's at his peak. And then to serve as food for me. Or for the gods, or for whatever. So that concept really does get into my own philosophy that I think we're all gods, we're, you know, the universe. We say God is 1, and that's true. That's the only way it can be, because God is everything. And if He's everything, then He's also one. If He's good, He's also evil. And the Old Testament shows that you know that people agree with me on that one. We're all in the same boat together. And we have to get ourselves out of it. But that's not saying we don't supplicate or ask God to help us, because we need the inner force. That greater thing than the one of us, to intervene somehow, because right now we don't seem to be doing such a good job about it.
Brad: Yeah, I mean in the specific story, there's something very profound about accepting your fate as something that is being grown to be eaten. I mean, that is, there's something profound there. I mean, it's, you know, we all have to, you know, deal with things in life. And we, you know, there's a lot of acceptance that goes on of loss and this and that. And this beet actually determines that it's pleased with its destiny which is to be you know to grow to its perfection and then be eaten. How? I mean, a lot of people might. You know, rebel against that, but not this Herbie the beet.
Leonard: Right. In fact, a lot of people do rail against it, but a lot of people also accept death for whatever it is.
Brad: Yeah, I mean the piece is so much more profound than it appears when it starts. And because you don't know where it's going and it's a very interesting piece. Yet another piece with God where He's not real happy with his angels. Can you talk about that one a little bit?
Leonard: Well, yeah, that's Angles Aren't Good Enough. That's a poem.
Brad: Right. Right.
Leonard: It starts off saying God wanted someone to keep him company to be someone he could converse with, someone he could learn about himself and that gets back to the beet program too, that we're actually as helpful to God as God is to us because we are one thing but let me get back to the other one. So He wants someone to be able to sing the song. And put all their feelings into it, all their rage, all their, something that will make them cry. Something will make them laugh. And His angel doesn't know what he's talking about. He has a lot of other things that He needs from his creation. I can't think of offhand just what all those things are. And He says, “Oh, my God, I guess I'm gonna have to invent, man.” Yeah. 
Brad: Um hm.
Leonard: Because we're not the only ones I'm sure, but we have the scope to know God better than most of the other creatures on earth. I don't know if that's true for the dolphins and the whales and so forth, but it seems as though they're the most evolved in that sense. 
Brad: Um hm.
Leonard: So if he's going to make man, he's going to make something that's very tough on this earth and something that really has a way to go to make sure he survives. And that's the position we find ourselves in.
Brad: OK. Moving away from God a little bit you actually have one somewhat gaudy piece in here. I mean this collection has everything. It really does. It has a selling your soul to the devil thing. It's got a a creature in the child's closet piece. But can you talk a little bit about the piece about the warefox?
Leonard: Yeah, well, werefox is the equivalent of a werewolf. But anyway, the werefox is a female. And she's a real foxy female. And she's being pursued by, and the Englishman who's, you might think he's a little strange, but he’str5 an Englishman. 
Brad: Laughs.
Leonard: He's on a horse that helps him to get there. The Fox turns into a a beautiful red headed woman. This is red fox. And she starts undulating and being very fetching and she invites him to join her. That's after he runs her down. He takes a while to consider maybe half a second, and then he's up and at it. Well, and then she turns back in, and he's just a regular person until the full moon when he gets these urges. And it turns out that he also grows a tail. And he has these episodes with these women and he finds out that's what's going to happen to him for the rest of his life. So. He'll live with it.
Brad: Yeah, it's not a horrible fate the way you present it in the story. Yeah, it wouldn't be that bad to be that character. It's pretty good. That's the story that doesn't really have any other stories that like connect to it, and there are a number of stories like that. One of the strangest stories, I think, is a street festival in a small town. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Because I think that actually had to do with something that you actually saw or experienced.
Leonard: Yeah. That that's actually. The true one of the truest homes there. There they are there. So they're coming to the small town. And the first thing they see is this blow up clown, which is, you know, tall as a building and it's got this loud machine that fills it with gas. So it has some structure and it's sort of like, sounds like it's fluctuating. And the kids run in from the bottom and they squirm up to the top and then they scoot down the. The slide. And I asked the question, there are the same kids that go in that clown, the same ones that come out or are they clones or something like that? So. So I only consider it for a short time and then we go and we follow the smells of the of the street festival that we're at. And this actually was. Happened in Gordonsville, where they had a street festival a number of years ago. I don't think they still have it. And we're and heist by the wonderful smells of pork fat, pork rinds. Fried. French fries that are going to kill you and I just like to make fun of that in that in the rest of that poem about we're going from the clown to the to this street festival. And all this is supposed to be fun, which it is, but it's horrible.
Brad: Right, right. Yeah, it's a very it's the story. The the poem has a very. You know a very spooky, slightly creepy feel to it, you know, which is, which is good, which is it fits in with. You know, with a lot of the other pieces. There are some straight pretty much straight sci-fi pieces in there. You've got the one about anti gravity in the graveyard, which is really more of a I mean tell me if this is correct. It seems to be more of a study of. Of human greed than it is about either anti gravity or. You know any sort of graveyard activity, is that correct?
Leonard: Yeah. And that's in the that's in the poem form and it and it's also in the long edition, but they're both in the same book, the. What's his name? I keep. Oh, Sally. Sally is his name. Yeah, he's the the head of the department. In a university and he is absolutely pure evil. And that's the only thing that I had I had. There any story that I have? That that I kind of remember about writing about giving the example of pure evil. And he has somebody that works under him, who's invented anti gravity and. Mind. Mind Hoffer, right? And he's really a pretty neat guy. And he's got the professor Phil. He understands that, Professor, what's going to happen when he finds out about that? He's invented something and he'll want to take it. And he takes it. But he he also. Guys I think in the in the process thereof and and he's buried and he acts and the the the professor acts as one of his pallbearers. And it's afterwards and now he's seeking the. The coffin where it's buried. Because he knows that the secret for anti gravity is in that grave. And he finds it. And he's very sorry that he does and why he's sorry. I'll let you find out. So I could I could actually play good against evil. And there was also a little. Bit of voodoo there.
Brad: As I said, the the book has everything you you've you've managed to include a lot of things that fit in this. You know this genre of supernatural and just, you know. You know, unusual and and you know ghosts and good versus evil and all of that so. So what do you think? The audience for this book is who are the audience for this book?
Leonard: Yeah. You know, I think if you could be fairly young. I wouldn't want kids to read it, but I think. It doesn't get any worse than a lot of the stuff out today when and that's if you have the. The wherewithal to interpret it, to know what's going on. So it's just the interest of the thing, just the adventure part of it is appropriate for. Young adults and of course as. That you grow in age and you identify with a lot of these issues that come up and so forth. It's very, very appropriate for that. So it's. It helps people to see things from a point of view that they. Maybe not have had before and they'll and that opens up some windows for them and to perceive things in a new way. With all these weird characters and weird situations and. And basically I wrote it just to have fun, just for me to have fun and for my own therapy, and for whoever reads it, just to have fun.
Brad: Excellent answer and it is fun. It's a fun book. You know, there's there's something for everyone in it. And will Diane be able to do a reading from it? Do we have that?
Leonard: Yeah, we can do that right now if you'd like.
Brad: Yeah, that would be great.
Leonard: OK, which one do you want to read?
Diane: The Basement or The Hobgoblin?
Leonard: Which, she can read about the Hobgoblin, or she can read about the basement at night.
Brad: Now that's an interesting piece because that is unique in the book, maybe that would be the one to do because you know, I have some questions about that one. There are several pieces that just don't fit into any sort of category and that one is sort of like that. It seems to be more…well, anyway, let's. Yeah, if you'll read it, then we can, you know, kind of pick it apart a little bit.
Leonard: Okay.
Diane: It's called in My Basement After Midnight. In my basement after midnight, one candle glows. Colors of the rainbow pour like melted wax into gloomy velvet and scintillate my wall. In my basement after midnight, I dawn a holy cloak, cover my head with reverence and sing a sacred song. In my basement after midnight, a Holy Spirit comes, revealed in velvet darkness. And tingles through my spine. In my basement after midnight, I lift my arms to welcome heart waiting patiently to feel it penetrate and swell until it seems that I might fly. In my basement after midnight, one candle glows uniting light with darkness and strengthening body, mind and soul.
Leonard:  Okay, you have questions about that.
Brad: Is this you know, I mean, it sounds like a very personal spiritual ritual that you engage in. Is that what it's about?
Leonard: It is about that I don't do that particular ritual anymore. I just. I did have some other ones but. You know the most. memorable theater that I ever experienced was The Exorcist. And that really awakened a lot of fears in me within the awaken them. But it made them intensified them. And I was always afraid of the dark. So I went about on a project to become very comfortable in the dark. It took me a couple of years, but I I reached my goal. I and in it I'm kind of doing a combination of. Jewish reverence. I have atalis. Which which is a prayer shawl. And I cover myself with that. And the the arm movements and so forth I think. Help me. They're they're more like the awakening of the combini or something like that, which I experienced as a tingling in the. And I really do feel like, you know it. I'm totally energized when I do that. When I found that that was essential in this particular exercise, I had to accept the dark part of myself. And that's what I did. That energy is is. Not good. It's not bad. It's just it's both. And it's. And once I recognized that it came in for myself. Then I realized that that I was the only one I was afraid of what was inside and that. Cured the the issue with the Exorcist. Yeah. So you have to be, you have to be there and you have experienced. It but it. Was really very powerful, did it for you.
Brad: Yeah. No, it is. It's profound. I mean, what you're talking about is a profound, you know, it's it's another, you know, therapeutic thing in a sense. I mean, as was, you know, some of the writing about things but this. This is even maybe a little bit more personally deep before we open things up the questions can you talk about where people can get this book?

Leonard: Yes. Diane, can you?
Diane: Yeah.
Leonard: Okay.
Diane: You go on Amazon. You just look for the book. It's called Moon Rising: Stories and Poems. And it's by Leonard Tuchyner. And it's available in Kindle and hardcover and paperback. That's all you really need to know. Be sure and get the title right, because there are some others with very close titles, but get exactly that title.
Brad: The More Rising Stories and Poems.
Leonard: And Leonard Tuchyner, that's TUCHYNER.
Diane: Right.
Brad: Yeah. Good. That's good that you spelled it. Yeah, it's not intuitive. Well, let's open it up for questions.
DeAnna Noriega: All right. If you have a question, raise your hand. 
Alice Massa: Leonard, thank you for another great book to read. I certainly enjoyed it. Each new piece, whether poem or prose, is always a a new turn around the corner and a somewhat surprise. Eyes and enjoyable read in one way or another, but I'll ask the question about one of the later stories in the book, The Violin, that hasn't been mentioned yet, and I'm curious when you come up with so many…
Leonard: No, it hasn't.
Alice: …creative ideas that I wonder, do you formulate the entire concept of this story in your mind before you ever sit down at your computer to write? Or do you just have a kernel of an idea, sit down to write and it develops as you are in front of the computer? 
Leonard: The latter. 
Alice: Thank you. It's amazing. 
Leonard: Yeah, I have to have a kernel.
Alice: You have a wonderful imagination.
Leonard: Yes, I have to have that kernel to start with, but then it develops its.
Alice: How did you come up with the idea for The Violin? Were you just thinking of a violin and what story you could write? How did that come to your idea for a kernel of a story?
Leonard: I'm not sure where I started from. Part of it was that the amount of love and energy and self that a person can put into a musical instrument. I had a client once who spent years working on an instrument and I don't know whether he ever finished it or not and so then the status of the person doing it. And so from all that that was just the story told me what it had to say. And giving the violin voice, 
Alice: Um hm.
Leonard: …was actually the man's heart, his soul. And it was, you know, he made a pact with the devil, which he happened to win. I mean, because he put his heart and soul into what he was willing to give the devil and the devil didn't want it.
Alice: Well, as with many of the pieces, it's just, there's that element of cleverness that is just so outstanding in the piece. And thank you, Diane, for reading the one piece to us also. 
Diane: And thank you.
Alice: Thank you.
Leonard: Thank you.
DeAnna: Kate Chamberlin has her hand up.
Kate Chamberlin: Hello. Very nice presentation, Leonard. I was wondering if you feel your writing is more prophetic before or after your heart attack?
Diane: He didn’t have a heart attack.
Leonard: Oh. I didn't have a heart attack. I had a stroke. And I had open heart surgery where they replaced the valve.
Kate: All right. So do you see any difference in your writing before and after the surgeries?
Leonard: I have to say yes I did, but. It was, in retrospect. You can't go through those kinds of experiences without it changing something in you. It makes things more immediate. I did a lot of stories about those two things. Of course, I had to. And just writing those stories, I mean, it helped me learn a little bit about myself and as I'm always doing. Does that answer your question?
Kate: Yes. I don't know if this is one of the stories in one of your books, but you had written a very insightful essay on PTSD. I've never read anything better than what you wrote about your experience.
Leonard: I'm not sure I know which story you're talking about, but I know where one is and that does have to do with the open heart surgery. The first thing I was told when I came out of the thing that allows you to have the surgery, was that they had to go back in because they had something bleeding. Well, I never totally lost consciousness. I didn't have any pain. But I was very aware of them fooling around with my heart or down there I was, I could think.
Kate: Oh my goodness.
Leonard: So and then afterwards I had this so long period of adjusting emotionally. And things might be very lay bile. Very emotional. I tried to watch something on TV about the Hobbits. And ordinarily I could just read that without any problem, but I could not get myself to go to to, stick through it because tt was just too, too emotional. It doesn't seem emotional to me now, but that was post traumatic. And I guess a lot of that sticks with you and it doesn't completely go away, although right now I don't think it's a problem. Yeah. Thanks for reminding me of that.
Kate: So I don't know if that was a happy memory or not, but thank you for writing about these things because you experienced it well. We may not be as afraid if we have our own experience. Thanks, Leonard.
Leonard: Thank you.
Brad: I can just throw in this line up, your piece about the stroke, about recognizing that you were having it and how you had to work on thinking afterward was absolutely fabulous. I mean, it was, you know, it's the kind of thing that, it's really good that you wrote that down because it's something that people should read.
DeAnna: Anymore questions?
Alice: I don't have a question, but maybe Marilyn can do her part now.
DeAnna: Sure, we can do that. 
Marilyn Smith: Most of you know I'm Marilyn Smith, President of Behind Our Eyes, and I don't recall us ever having an event that's close to Halloween. The fact that we had to change things up at the last minute and Leonard got this Friday night slot, it has to be meant to be, because his stories just say so much about people with open minds and with questioning minds. Which is, I think, why we all do costumes and all the funny little things we do at Halloween. As most of you know, whether you're a member or you are listening to this later, Leonard does facilitate three small critique group for us, at Behind Our Eyes and members have been enjoying participating in those since twenty sixteen. That's just one of the many things that Behind Our Eyes has to offer. Our fall winter issue of Magnets and Ladders is just about ready. I talked with Mary-Jo last night and it should be coming out within the next week to ten days, I think, and that is where members and nonmembers can submit material in fiction, nonfiction, and poetry for consideration, and we publish that twice a year. So we'll be doing a request for submissions again in January. You go to Magnets and Ladders dot org to check out previous issues and read the guidelines. Now if you are a friend with a disability who likes to write or would like to at least explore that possibility, is interested, go to Behind Our Eyes dot org and you can check out information about us, about Behind Our Eyes. There's also a link to join. If you're ready and our mailing list is very low traffic and highly centered on riding. We develop a lot of off list partnerships and, you know, critiques and friendships that carry over to all of our Sunday night conferences and other things. Be sure and keep your eye out for announcements about coming Book Launches such as this one tonight and we will hope to see you at another one soon. OK, thanks. That's my part. 
DeAnna: I would like to announce that my Dog Wood Blossom: Growing Up Native American has been published this week and I'll be sending some information about it to the list and my Book Launch will be in December. I will pull the cord now and let everyone go enjoy the rest of their evening. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Leonard: Thank you. Thank you, Brad.
Brad: OK. Thank you.

Readers Note: If you have found this transcript to be helpful, please take a moment to let us know by sending a brief message to Marlene Mesot at: Marl.Mesot@gmail.com. You may also contact someone you know in our writers’ group. Thank you very much.